Aix-en-Provence Room, Guildhall, Bath
Present:
- Andrew Jones, Environmental Monitoring & Licensing Manager,
B&NES
- Roger Pope, Principal Trading Standards Officer, B&NES
- Jon Poole, B&NES, Community Safety
- Martin Purchase, Police Liquor Licensing Bureau
- George Delmar, Avon Fire and Rescue
- Richard Williams-Jones, Avon Fire and Rescue
- Kevan Rowlands, Avon and Somerset Constabulary
- Paul Kendall, Avon and Somerset Constabulary
- Stephen Hunt, Campaign for Real Ale
- Keith Reid, Public Health, B&NES PCT
- Hugh Brooker, Bath Bar Charter Group
- Burniece Brown, Team Administrator, Licensing Team,
B&NES
- Councillor David Bellotti, B&NES
- Councillor Vic Pritchard, B&NES
- Councillor Brian Webber, B&NES
- Councillor Sarah Webb, B&NES
- Councillor Leslie Kew, B&NES
Apologies:
- Alan Bartlett, Principal Licensing Officer, B&NES
- Cath Humphries, Sr. Environmental Health Officer,
B&NES
The meeting was chaired by Andrew Jones and apologies for
absence were taken.
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Local Authority Update (Facts and Figures)
Andrew Jones reported that, with the second appointed day just
three days away, the Licensing Team have so far issued 780
licences, mainly for Alcohol, with 50 or 60 for Takeaways, Theatres
and Community Halls.
Looking at national figures, it would seem that up to 50% of
licences sent out nationwide have errors in them. To date,
about 10% have been returned to B&NES with errors.
All licences were determined in time for the second appointed
day, with just two appeals, one of which was out of time. So
there is now only one going to appeal. We have had 96
hearings during the past few months with up to 11 in one day.
Despite all the hype, B&NES have granted only 18 “24 hour”
licences in the area, six of which are at the University, some were
supermarkets and the remainder are pubs and members’ clubs.
Most of these do not want to use this facility, but want the
flexibility.
A great deal of time is now being taken up with Variations of
premises and Designated Premises Supervisors, Transfers and changes
of address for Personal Licence Holders. Temporary Event
Notices (TENS) are now coming in and look like producing a large
amount of paperwork.
Now that the licences are in place, we are looking at our
enforcement policy and will be having talks with the police to
establish procedures.
Councillor Kew asked what the 10% of errors were and Andrew
Jones replied that these were mainly typographical and/or input
error.
Martin Purchase asked how many licences are still outstanding
from the original number expected and Andrew Jones stated that
about 30 or 40 were outstanding and these are mainly Clubs and
Village Halls, some of whom will not apply for a new premises
licence but will use the TENS when required.
Councillor Webb asked what percentage of licences issued are for
pubs and clubs and what percentage were restaurants or other
premises. Andrew Jones answered that there has not been time
to evaluate that yet. Councillor Webb also wanted to know
what events the TENS are for. Andrew Jones explained that
most of the TENS are for community or village events, where a
premises licence is not in place, although one or two premises are
using these to tide them over for a few days, since their
application was late coming in, and is therefore not in place in
time.
Councillor Pritchard felt it was important to record in the
minutes the efforts of our Licensing Team who have completed the
task of dealing with the imposition of the new Licensing Act with a
high degree of accuracy and also within our existing
resources. They have completed this with an error rate of
only 10% compared with national levels of between 50-70% error
ratings, and without additional funding, unlike other
Councils. He therefore would like to offer congratulations to
the team.
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Update from Licensing Agencies
Police:
Kevan Rolands spoke on the efforts of the police to come down
hard on persistent offenders. He stated that it is very hard
to get the publicity coordinated, but this time they have achieved
this. The Three Strikes policy has been covered in all
sections of the Media. He said that there had been tremendous
assistance from the Community Safety Department and is very pleased
with the way Three Strikes has started off. The Government
have also promised help with community enforcement campaigns and a
grant has been received of £3,000 towards this. The Police
are also having discussions on how to cope with the extended
licensing hours. A great deal of work went into checking the
operating schedules in the licence applications and Martin Purchase
managed to negotiate with the applicants, which avoided the
necessity for hearings.
Martin Purchase stated that there is ongoing work to be done
with Variations, DPS Variations and of course TENS.
Paul Kendal said that Radstock and Midsomer Norton would also be
involved with the Three Strikes campaign and is confident that
local businesses would cooperate in this. Councillor
Pritchard asked if a street drinking ban could be effected in
Radstock. Would the police change their minds about acting on
this. Paul Kendal was not sure if it could be enforced
adequately, especially at Carnival times.
Councillor Kew asked police if they could foresee any problems
in enforcing the new legislation. Kevan Rolands thought that
the new legislation is a positive thing and felt that there will be
less trouble than now. He feels the longer hours will keep
people inside premises for longer and therefore off the
streets. Martin Purchase feels that the new Act gives more
power to deal with problems, once the dust has settled.
Councillor Webb hoped the police are right but is concerned that
things will actually get worse with the sheer numbers of people in
a small area of the City. She feels that going from bar to
bar is part of the scene and people will want to continue doing
this.
Paul Kendal feels that in the more rural areas and also in
Radstock, the problem will be more difficult to control. He
will have to take more officers out of service during the daytime
in order to provide more coverage at night.
Councillor Bellotti shares the optimism of the Police but feels
we will not know until 6-9 months time.
The Government is very clear in that they expect us to deal with
people who drink too much and we need to establish where these
people are coming from and to take appropriate action against
premises which do not uphold the law.
There is a government paper from the Home Office which is a
guide offering advice to Police and Licensing Authorities.
Licensees themselves do not yet know how they will have to
operate.
Kevan Rolands stated that in due course it will be possible to
review licences, if problems occur.
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Trading Standards:
Referring to under-age drinking, Roger Pope said it is very
expensive to carry out these operations, both in the actual cost
and the difficulty in recruiting young people to assist. We
will try and do some work on both off licences and on licences
before Christmas, but it depends on staffing levels and on finding
suitable young people.
Councillor Bellotti stated that it seemed as though many young
people buy alcohol at supermarkets and have often already been
drinking quite heavily when they get to the bars.
Roger Pope stated that there is a problem with the definition of
the sale of alcohol and the government are looking at adding on an
amendment to the act, to shore this aspect up.
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Avon Fire and Rescue:
Richard Williams-Jones wished to thank Andrew Jones and in
particular Alan Bartlett, for their cooperation in dealing with
applications where there were problems with the plans, and
especially the fire safety equipment, which was often not shown
properly. He stated that they coped with all the applications
without having to make representations.
Councillor Kew mentioned that getting all the plans drawn up was
very expensive, especially for smaller businesses and in many cases
cost over £1,000 to get their licences
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LVA:
There were no representatives at the meeting from the LVA.
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Bath Bar Charter:
Hugh Brooker stated that there have been regular meetings over
the past year. Concern was expressed at the January meeting
last year that this was losing momentum, but there are usually up
to 16 members including residents, licensees, council officers,
police, etc.
Talking about longer licensing hours, he stated that licensees
would only be open if there is enough business. This will be
established over the coming months. He also stated that he
did not think there was a major problem with under age drinking in
the city centre.
Bath Bar Charter operates Night Watch radio link, and is
launching a Street Marshall scheme from 22nd November through
December. This will cover George Street, Broad Street, Milsom
Street and Walcot Street. This is funded by a group of
Licensees and was very successful last December. BBC Group
also works with the University who provide Marshalls during
Freshers week. The cost for Street Marshalling is £15 per
hour per man and operates from 10.00 pm to 3.00 am – there are
three of them.
Hugh Brooker went on to say that the group wanted to express
their thanks to Kevan Rolands for all the work he has done with
Bath Bar Charter Group and said they will be very sorry to see him
leave.
Councillor Kew wished to say how thankful the local authority
are to Hugh Brooker and the Bath Bar Charter Group.
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Night Vision:
There will be a further Night Vision operation early next year
and local businesses will provide volunteers for this.
Jon Poole then gave a presentation on Night Vision. A
summary of this presentation is below (for a full copy of the
NightVision report please refer to http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/lifeandleisure/dealingwithcrime/):
Summary
Introduction
Following the identification of alcohol related crime and
disorder as an area requiring further research, Bath and North East
Somerset Community Safety and Drugs Partnership and the Bath Bar
Charter Group, supported by the Government Office for the South
West, conducted a visual audit of incidents relating to alcohol
related crime and disorder in Bath city centre.
Over the course of two weekends in the February/March 2005, 16
surveyors from various demographic and interest groups walked set
routes around Bath city centre recording the location of various
categories of alcohol related behaviour and physical features:
Behaviour
- Aggression or Intimidating Behaviour
- Nuisance Noise
- Obviously Intoxicated Person
- Urinating or Vomiting
- Street Drinking
- Violent Criminal Behaviour
Physical Features
- Dropped Litter/Food
- Bottles/Cans and Broken Glass on Street
- Urine and Vomit
- Criminal Damage (to cars, street furniture including
vandalism)
- Other Incidents/Physical Features
The report does not intend to provide any quantification of what
levels of behaviour and incidents are acceptable within the
night-time economy.
Historical Context
Levels of Police recorded Criminal Damage, Violent Crime outside
the home and complaints regarding nuisance and disorder in Bath
city centre during the time of the survey were roughly average
within the April 2004 – March 2005 period.
Overall findings
‘Nuisance noise’ was the most commonly recorded behaviour,
followed by ‘dropped litter/food’ and ‘bottles cans and broken
glass’.
The greatest number of incidents were recorded on Saturday
night/Sunday mornings.
Two routes through the city centre were planned; each route was
walked four times. The last route (02:30) had the greatest
concentration of incidents, although the greatest concentration of
‘nuisance noise’ was recorded during route 2 (12:30) and ‘dropped
litter/food’ and ‘bottles and broken glass’ during route 3
(01:30).
Although persons within the ‘student’ and ‘health care
professional’ surveyor groups recorded more incidents than those
from the ‘residents’ and ‘licensees’ groups, there is evidence to
suggest that it is individual perception, rather than membership of
a specific group, which impacts on overall findings. Analysis has
been conducted on geography, the likelihood of surveyor perceptions
affecting results and the volume of incidents over specific
nights.
Geographical Findings
Geographical ‘hotspot’s were identified for a large number of
the categories recorded. Of particular note are:
- The passageway between Walcot Street and The Paragon, for
aggression or intimidating behaviour, bottles cans and broken glass
and urine and vomit.
- The area surrounding the Abbey and Orange grove for nuisance
noise, obviously intoxicated persons and urine and vomit.
- Street drinking being primarily concentrated around the Bus
Station area.
- Dropped litter and food being primarily concentrated around the
location of late night fast food establishments.
When analysed, the following categories are deemed likely to
relate to individual perception: ‘Aggression or intimidating
behaviour’, ‘nuisance noise’ and ‘obviously intoxicated
persons’.
‘Violent criminal behaviour’ and ‘Criminal Damage’ could not be
mapped for various reasons. There were five incidents of violent
criminal behaviour recorded throughout the course of the time
periods examined.
A large number of incidents were reported as Criminal Damage,
significantly larger than the number of offences recorded on the
specific nights. Further research would be necessary to analyse the
nature of this inconsistency.
Further Comments and Perceptions of Safety
On average, surveyors felt ‘fairly safe’ in the City Centre.
Where incidents of ‘fairly unsafe’ or ‘neither safe nor unsafe’
were recorded, they related to interaction with isolated incidents
of ‘violent criminal behaviour’.
A number of issues may be highlighted as changing individuals’
perceptions of safety although these areas, and overall feelings of
safety vary according to each individual.
Of the ‘other’ incidents and physical features recorded, the
most common related to surveyors feeling ‘unsafe and at risk’ due
to speeding and dangerously driven motor vehicles.
Jon Poole
Community Safety Research Officer
Bath & North East Somerset Community Safety and Drugs
Partnership
Bath Police Station
Manvers Street
Bath
BA1 1JN
jon.poole@avonandsomerset.police.uk
Telephone: 01225 842532
After the presentation Councillor Webb brought up the subject of
street cleaning during the night. The idea came out during a
meeting of BBC Group and was suggested by Inspector Mogg.
Richard Williams-Jones also felt this could help and would reduce
problems with arson.
Jon’s work is used for planning strategy and there is plenty
within this report that would be useful to both police and local
authority.
Hugh Brooker stated that the BBC Group would like to see Night
Vision done six monthly.
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Any Other Business
Councillor Webb re presented the idea of having an open
meeting for the general public, however Andrew Jones suggested that
this should be a subject for the next meeting of the Licensing
Committee. Councillor Kew felt it should not happen until the
act has been in operation for a good six months, when people will
have a better understanding of how it is working.
Keith Reid – Public Health, has a meeting on 8th December which
members of the Forum may be interested in. Details of this
will follow.
Andrew Jones stated that he had been asked by the Licensing
Committee to make these meetings more formal. The general
consensus was that the current format was more acceptable.
Richard Williams-Jones pointed out that there is a meeting room
facility available at the Bath Fire Station which could be booked
through his office for future meetings if required.
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Date of Next Meeting
Monday 27 February 2006 in the Aix-en-Provence Room, Guildhall,
Bath.
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Aix-en-Provence Room, Guildhall, Bath
Present:
- Andrew Jones, Environmental Monitoring & Licensing Manager,
B&NES
- Roger Pope, Principal Trading Standards Officer, B&NES
- George Delmar, Avon Fire and Rescue
- Pete Warren, Avon and Somerset Constabulary
- Darren Taylor, Avon and Somerset Constabulary
- James Honey, Campaign for Real Ale
- Hugh Brooker, Bath Bar Charter Group
- Silas Freeman, Safe and Sound Ltd
- Lyn Seward, LVA
- Burniece Brown, Team Administrator, Licensing Team,
B&NES
- Councillor David Bellotti, B&NES
- Councillor Vic Pritchard, B&NES
- Councillor Brian Webber, B&NES
- Councillor Chris Cray, B&NES
- Councillor Hattie Ajderian
Apologies:
- Alan Bartlett, Principal Licensing Officer, B&NES
- Cath Humphries, Senior Environmental Health Officer,
B&NES
- Jon Poole, B&NES, Community Safety
- Martin Purchase, Police Liquor Licensing Bureau
- Stephen Hunt, Campaign for Real Ale
- Councillor Sarah Webb, B&NES
- Jonathan East
The meeting was chaired by Andrew Jones and apologies for
absence were taken.
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Local Authority Update
Andrew Jones gave an update of licences issued to date.
Councillor Cray enquired whether the officers try hard enough to
resolve issues before they come to a hearing. It has required
a great deal of effort on behalf of the licensing committee to
attend the many hearings that are held. Andrew Jones stated
that officers try to resolve issues as a matter of course and that
many representations are dealt with prior to a hearing becoming
necessary. Most representations from Police, Fire Service and
Environmental Health are resolved by mediation. No other
issued were raised.
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Update from Police
Inspector Warren reported that since the new Licensing Act came
in, the City Centre is looking good, and this includes the
Christmas period. Since December the Police have had a
licensing team out every weekend and they do actually visit
licensed premises to make their presence felt.
Andrew Jones mentioned that Jon Poole is actually in the middle
of the Night Vision annual review and will give a report on it at
the next meeting, when he will have some results. The police
generally feel that the new licensing regime is going well.
Councillor Cray raised the issue of the new smoking ban which is
due to come into force in 2007. He has concerns that this
will push smokers out onto the street to smoke which may cause
problems on the streets.
Lyn Seward also feels that this could be a problem which will
create flashpoints. She feels that it will be more difficult
for landlords to control their own patch as people from the pub
will be mixing with people passing by on the street.
Inspector Warren said that we have to wait and see, as it may
not become an issue. The Licensing Act was expected to
produce problems, but this doesn’t seem to have happened.
Councillor Bellotti supported this idea. He also stated that
this would be less of a problem in Bath City Centre due to Byelaws
prohibiting drinking on the street.
Lyn Seward said that in her premises she will be pressing to get
a “Giving Up Club” started, to promote the idea of No Smoking in
pubs and to offer support to those who wanted to give up. She
felt that in time it would be the norm not to smoke in pubs and
clubs much in the way that it is now normal not to smoke in cinemas
and theatres, or on public transport.
Councillor Pritchard stated that although he had misgivings
about the Licensing Act, he admits that the figures look very
encouraging. However we must go through the full year before
we know for certain that the Act is not going to cause
problems. He said that with the smoking ban we have working
models in both Ireland and in New York, and can see the results
there. It is going to be in the hands of the landlords as
they will be facing the fines and will make sure therefore that it
is policed.
Councillor Ajderian stated that it was a good idea to be
proactive in the way Lyn Seward suggested and find positive ways to
go forward.
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Update from Fire Department
George Delmar stated that the Fire Service has no concerns or
issues at the moment. Word seems to be getting around that
the Fire Service will put in representations if the premises
applications are seen to be inappropriate.
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Environmental Health
Andrew Jones stated that he had checked with EH and that they
had no specific issues at the present time.
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Trading Standards
Roger Pope reported that during an under age sales test
purchasing, 14 premises were visited, and the problem seems to be
more with the off-licences and supermarkets than with public
houses. He stated that the new Code of Practice for test
purchasing for underage sales will make it more difficult to do the
job properly. He is hoping that next year they will have a
programme in place with the police.
Councillor Bellotti, who sits on a LACORS Council, agreed that
the new code would make it more difficult. One issue coming
up is that many of the places that are guilty of under age selling
are small shops, supermarkets etc., rather than with pubs and
clubs.
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LVA Update
Lyn Seward reported that the LVA is undergoing a metamorphosis,
as now the emphasis is on personal licence holders rather than
licensees. It is now open to all personal licence holders for
premises that primarily sell alcohol. This has upset some of
the more traditional members, as it is bringing in more members
from restaurants and bistros etc.
She also stated that she is personally very happy and pleased
with the Street Marshalling Scheme. It had to be kept away
from the Residents Associations, or it might not have got
started. She raised the question of New Year’s Eve and
whether or not it was deregulated. Councillor Bellotti stated
that he would like legal advice taken on this matter and a
definitive answer to be circulated.
Andrew Jones will contact the Council’s Legal Team and ask them
to provide a definitive answer.
Lyn Seward feels that the new Licensing Act has made life easier
and personally finds it better for her customers as it is much less
manic. People drift out during the last hour, when alcohol
isn’t sold. She is also providing hot food for them to take
home so that they are less likely to linger in the streets.
Councillor Ajderian asked if the LVA was open to Personal
Licence Holders from Village Halls, as she felt these people would
benefit from being members of such an organisation. Lyn
Seward said they hadn’t thought of asking them. However, she
felt that the bar staff of today may well be the landlords of
tomorrow and would like to see all bar staff encouraged to join the
LVA.
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CAMRA
James Honey was asked if he had any comments to make at this
time. He stated that he was pleased with the way it has gone
so far, but feels it needs two full years to be able to judge.
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Bath Bar Charter
Hugh Brooker reported that the feedback from residents on the
Street Marshall scheme was very positive. At the last meeting
of the Bath Bar Charter Group it was agreed that Alan Bartlett and
Martin Purchase would make joint visits to premises not already
involved in order to point out the benefits of being part of the
scheme. Bath Bar Charter Group is also involved in
encouraging this.
Silas Freeman of Safe and Sound who operate the Street Marshall
Scheme then gave a report on the progress made. There is one
group consisting of 2 Marshals and 1 Paramedic, who work primarily
at the top end of the town. In the evenings there is an
ambulance on site and they also work closely with the Taxi Marshals
and with the SIA. There is ongoing training taking place all
the time and they are gathering information on how to make it work
better.
The hours worked are from 10.00 pm to 3.00 am. Councillors
present felt that this is probably not long enough, since some
places stay open past 3.00 pm, however this is privately funded and
the current funding does not allow for more time.
It is intended to make the Marshals more in evidence with
“Street Marshal” on the front and back of their jackets and the
Para Medic to also be properly identified. Being a physical
presence often keeps things on an even keel. If things do get
out of hand they then call the police. Street Marshals also
deal with ordinary situations where people are not inebriated but
just noisy, and they will try to keep the noise to a
minimum.
Lyn Seward stated that the LVA are actively trying to persuade
more pubs and clubs to have staff that have special training to
deal with difficult situations and who can diffuse a situation when
it occurs.
Councillor Pritchard asked Hugh Brooker about the application
for Community Safety Funding. Darren Taylor from Bath City
Police stated that the funding was to be used for a number of
issues, mainly for buying safety and security equipment.
Darren Taylor gave an update on the Three Strikes scheme
operated by the police since last November. He said that
there are not enough licensed premises on board, only about 26 at
the present time. They are putting a letter together to send
to all City centre licensees to try and get them to sign up to the
scheme.
Hugh Brooker then mentioned the finger print ID scheme that Alan
Bartlett had told him about, which he thought would work well with
the Three Strikes scheme. He also mentioned the one stop shop
at St Michael’s Church, for people who are inebriated or too unwell
to get home, or have nowhere else to go. There
followed some discussion on a Wet House and the benefits and
disadvantages.
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page
Any Other Business
Lyn Seward would like to know how things are going with the Taxi
Marshal scheme and how they are finding it following the new
Act. Andrew Jones said that he would raise this at the Taxi
Forum Meeting at the end of March and report back
Andrew Jones stated that the Council is looking at new software
which can be used to show premises licences together with their
hours and conditions on the Council website so that the public can
access this information.
Next Meeting
Andrew Jones will advise this once arrangements have been
made.
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